Jeff Mincey - 30 August 2005 12:07 PM

“PowerBook is prosumer?”No, I don’t think so. (Had I said anything to the contrary?) The highest-end iMac and the lower-end PowerMac towers are in the “prosumer” category in my opinion.

Only indirectly.  The example I gave that you responded to was the significant price disparity between PowerBook and Dell XPS laptops.  The one Apple area that seems contrary to the norm is with the Mac Mini.  Okay, it’s a box without necessities to run it.  That’s not a bad thing.  A comparably-priced Wintel desktop has an LCD screen, keyboard and mouse but everything about the system is built with cost-cutting in mind.  The Mac Mini has the same thing in mind, perhaps, but you’d never know it to look at it.  Heck, it has digital video and decent storage.  The eMac isn’t bad, either!  I was surprised.  The iMac at the low end is where things get pretty even and then it goes spendy when you try to add RAM or storage from the Apple Store.  (Lesson:  Don’t buy RAM or storage from the Apple Store.) By the way, there’s no direct competition in the iMac form factor until you get to a $3,000+ Sony.

... JJ

Microsoft = Criminal Company

Jebedee - 30 August 2005 12:29 PM

Jeff Mincey - 30 August 2005 12:07 PM

“PowerBook is prosumer?”No, I don’t think so. (Had I said anything to the contrary?) The highest-end iMac and the lower-end PowerMac towers are in the “prosumer” category in my opinion.

Only indirectly.  The example I gave that you responded to was the significant price disparity between PowerBook and Dell XPS laptops.  The one Apple area that seems contrary to the norm is with the Mac Mini.  Okay, it’s a box without necessities to run it.  That’s not a bad thing.  A comparably-priced Wintel desktop has an LCD screen, keyboard and mouse but everything about the system is built with cost-cutting in mind.  The Mac Mini has the same thing in mind, perhaps, but you’d never know it to look at it.  Heck, it has digital video and decent storage.  The eMac isn’t bad, either!  I was surprised.  The iMac at the low end is where things get pretty even and then it goes spendy when you try to add RAM or storage from the Apple Store.  (Lesson:  Don’t buy RAM or storage from the Apple Store.) By the way, there’s no direct competition in the iMac form factor until you get to a $3,000+ Sony.

I’m not quite sure there’s such a price disparity between the high end PowerBook and the high end Dell ‘whatever’ laptop.

It’s interesting that we buy computers because the software on the machine does stuff for us (email, browse, word processing, spreadsheets, graphics, audio, video, etc.). Yet, when someone offers a ‘comparison’ of price between machines, they ONLY discuss the hardware aspects, not the software.

So, to compare a 17” PowerBook with a Dell or anything else, requires that they be evenly matched in BOTH hardware and software; at least, wherever possible.

Sorry, no matter how you shake it out, major brand to major brand, Dell loses. In fact, there’s a substantial disparity in favor of the Mac. Add it up yourself. Comparable hardware. Comparable software.

I just went to the Dell site, checked on the latest XPS Gen 2 (17"). Get as close as you can on hardware to compare to the PowerBook 17”, even add Windows Pro Microsoft Office and a few other goodies. The Dell is almost $3,700, while the PowerBook hits about $3,000.

That’s hardware, OS, and Office Suite (basics to compare).

Then, just try to figure out which Windows applications meet up with what you get in iLife.

Sorry, even on price, feature-for-feature, point-for-point, Dell loses.

Then, just for grins, let’s look at TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)…

Bwahahahahah!

Now, that’s not to say you can’t buy something cheaper than a Mac. But not pound for pound and still retain the same level of quality, productivity, security, stability, etc.

1 - Macs are cheap.

2 - Microsoft is a criminal company.

NoodleMac - 30 August 2005 02:54 PM

I just went to the Dell site, checked on the latest XPS Gen 2 (17"). Get as close as you can on hardware to compare to the PowerBook 17”, even add Windows Pro Microsoft Office and a few other goodies. The Dell is almost $3,700, while the PowerBook hits about $3,000.

That’s hardware, OS, and Office Suite (basics to compare).

I must have been looking in the wrong places, then.  My Dell XPS came from Costco.  It included MS Office and a 3-year warranty for $2,800.  Note:  I’m not a Dell fan.  My brother (the same one who said, “Buy IBM compatible unless you have a good reason not to.") had several dealings with Dell while he was a systems administrator.  He’d turn in equipment for repair and the equipment would come back repaired and working, but with used replacement parts that were occasionally older than the failed parts they replaced.

I can’t get the top-shelf 17” PowerBook with MS Office and a 3-year warranty for $3,000.  You can.  I want to know what you know.

NoodleMac - 30 August 2005 02:54 PM

Then, just try to figure out which Windows applications meet up with what you get in iLife.

One of these days, I plan on finding out.  In the meantime, you’re one of comparatively few who know that.

NoodleMac - 30 August 2005 02:54 PM

Sorry, even on price, feature-for-feature, point-for-point, Dell loses.

The Centrino just can’t keep up with a 1.67GHz G4?  Keep in mind that you’re discussing this with J. Q. Public and adjust your language accordingly.

NoodleMac - 30 August 2005 02:54 PM

Then, just for grins, let’s look at TCO (Total Cost of Ownership)… Bwahahahahah!

So the PowerBook holds a battery charge longer?  I’ll notice a difference in my electricity bill with Apple?

NoodleMac - 30 August 2005 02:54 PM

Now, that’s not to say you can’t buy something cheaper than a Mac. But not pound for pound and still retain the same level of quality, productivity, security, stability, etc.

I love the looks of the Macs when compared with Intels.  They look like designer furniture, for crying out loud!  Simple, elegant and beautiful, even when they’re switched off.

But that’s still a lot to pay.  Designer prices for designer furniture, I mean.  One of the most brilliant summaries of the Mac experience came from a fellow named Andy who works for NASA.  He did a head-to-head performance shootout between Macs and various Intel machines.  We’re talking dual-processor PowerMacs competing with Intel and AMD machines.  The scores:  Except for two categories (which I can’t remember now) the AMD just obliterated the PowerMacs.  I don’t mean that there was just a little bit of difference.  I mean that the single-processor AMDs stomped the PowerMacs and ate them for lunch.  So you would expect Andy to summarize the test results and declare AMD the clear winner with various Intel configurations runners-up.  Nope.  That’s not the way he saw it.

His summary was that PowerMacs might lose by milliseconds here and there, or by a few minutes in long-term operations, but that doesn’t measure the most important aspects of the user experience.  How long will it take you to get things done?  The facts were, in Andy’s mind, that you measure processor differences without getting to the heart of what takes time.  He said that he’s able to get things done quicker using the slower machines because he doesn’t waste hours trying to make it right.  And isn’t that really a better measure of a machine’s speed than testing how many floating point operations its processor can handle per second?

But then we’re back to Square 1:  How does one inform an uninformed (ignorant, not stupid) public of Andy’s findings?  Apple machines are comparatively slow.  Steve Jobs himself knows that and he’s taking steps to remedy the situation.  Despite the last-generation hardware, Macs can still give the average consumer more bang for his buck than current-generation Wintel machines.  I’m just wondering how anyone can spread the word in a meaningful way with an industry-wide focus on floating point operation speed.  Andy pretty well convinced me.  Can you think of a better way?

NoodleMac - 30 August 2005 02:54 PM

1 - Macs are cheap.

No, that won’t do it.  If it were so, I’d have three.  Or four.  Honesty is always the best policy in good advertising—especially by word-of-mouth—because it lends credibility to the entire statement and ones that follow.  I think that’s what impressed me most about Andy’s comments.  He didn’t make “but-but-but” excuses for Macs.  He tested and he called the results honestly.  He didn’t report selectively.  If they’re expensive, call them expensive.  If they’re slow, call them slow.  If you tell the truth about the bad things, people will be much more likely to believe you when you get to the good things.

NoodleMac - 30 August 2005 02:54 PM

2 - Microsoft is a criminal company.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of a Mac.  However, I’ll repeat it for Ms. Hambi’s reading pleasure.

Windows = Criminal Company

... JJ

Your argumentation is relatively sophomoric, even for a Windows user. Just look at the line of general statements with no knowledge, background, logic, or experience to give them weight.

I just went to the Dell site and could NOT get a Dell XPS Gen 2 (top of the line), comparably equipped in hardware and software, for less than a PowerBook. Try it. Now, you found a low priced end-of-model closeout of a Dell at Costco, one of the world’s largest discounters. Hmmmm. What’s wrong with that comparison? Compare Apple to Dell, please. I’m sure I could find some guy who also repo’s cars, who’d ‘get’ me a PowerBook for much less than the Apple price…

“I canÌt get the top-shelf 17Ó PowerBook with MS Office and a 3-year warranty for $3,000.  You can.  I want to know what you know.”

That’s where you miss the point. The Dell at Costco is a closeout model you can’t buy from Dell, right? So compare apples to Apples, so to speak.

Regarding Mac’s iLife apps vs. anything comparable to Windows, you shrug and say, “One of these days, I plan on finding out.  In the meantime, youÌre one of comparatively few who know that.”

What? You’re not even a Mac user? Are you trolling for babes at Mac360?

Regarding a feature-for-feature, point-for-point, Dell loses statement, you say, “The Centrino just canÌt keep up with a 1.67GHz G4?  Keep in mind that youÌre discussing this with J. Q. Public and adjust your language accordingly.”

Stop taking argumentation and logic lessons from your 92-year-old Aunt Edna. All you can mention is the Centrino? First, the Dell is not a Centrino. It’s a Dell XPS. Centrino is the wireless package from Intel.

“Keeping up with” sure isn’t quantified very well. Try 30 or 40 points, features, comparison items. Then, add up the winners and losers, and see who has more wins, more losses.

What say you to TCO?

“So the PowerBook holds a battery charge longer?  IÌll notice a difference in my electricity bill with Apple?”

What? What does ‘holds a battery charge longer’ have to do with TCO? Gimme a break, dude!

Somehow, through all your drivel, you show an appreciation for something that’s well built (besides Ms. Hambi, whom you appear to be so smitten...).

“I love the looks of the Macs when compared with Intels.  They look like designer furniture, for crying out loud!  Simple, elegant and beautiful, even when theyÌre switched off.

But thatÌs still a lot to pay.  Designer prices for designer furniture, I mean.”

What’s a ‘lot to pay?’ What part of this whole thread have you failed to grasp?

Hardware is hardware. Compare them as equally as you can.

Software is software. Compare it all as equally as you can.

Cost? Well, amazingly, ‘cost’ is actually different than ‘price.’ Do you need that explained to you?

OK --

price |pr?s| noun the amount of money expected, required, or given in payment for something : land could be sold for a high price | a wide selection of tools varying in price. Ô figurative an unwelcome experience, event, or action involved as a condition of achieving a desired end…

Think ‘price’ as what you pay up front. Think ‘cost’ as what you may continue to pay to keep, maintain, repair, upgrade, etc., as in ‘total cost of ownership’ which is an amount that is usually more, sometimes substantially more, than the original price.

For example, a Windows PC. Price = low. Cost = high. Get it?

Macs are cheap. There are so many TCO studies out there that show just exactly that. Lower cost of ownership vs. Windows, Linux, et al. That doesn’t mean that your father, who may as well be your mother’s brother, didn’t buy a $299 PC that just sat and worked fine for 16 years is an acceptable example of TCO when comparing brands.

How do you respond to such a statement? “No, that wonÌt do it.  If it were so, IÌd have three.  Or four.  Honesty is always the best policy in good advertisingÛespecially by word-of-mouthÛbecause it lends credibility to the entire statement and ones that follow....”

Hmmm. Well, that logic is tough to swallow, even for me. Are you saying that Windows PCs are one third, to one fourth the price of a comparable Mac?

Studies show Mac users are, in general, more educated, more intelligent, and better off financially, than Windows users. And you’re a Windows user, right?

Finally, finally you get something into the post that makes sense, except it doesn’t come from you. It’s from a guy you know…

“His summary was that PowerMacs might lose by milliseconds here and there, or by a few minutes in long-term operations, but that doesnÌt measure the most important aspects of the user experience.  How long will it take you to get things done?  The facts were, in AndyÌs mind, that you measure processor differences without getting to the heart of what takes time.  He said that heÌs able to get things done quicker using the slower machines because he doesnÌt waste hours trying to make it right.  And isnÌt that really a better measure of a machineÌs speed than testing how many floating point operations its processor can handle per second?”

Da daaaaa!

Jebedee, it’s not my intent to rake you over the bit coals. Go buy a Mac mini and try it for 29-days. If you can’t figure out what it is that makes a Mac a Mac in 29 days, get your money back.

I’m actually impressed that Apple is doing the 30-day ‘Try It or Give It Back’ routine.

It should be noted that Dell, Gateway, HP, do NOT have a similar 30 day program. It’s usually the retailers who move the boxes who have such a program, right?

carol-mary-mac - 31 August 2005 12:16 PM

I’m actually impressed that Apple is doing the 30-day ‘Try It or Give It Back’ routine.

It should be noted that Dell, Gateway, HP, do NOT have a similar 30 day program. It’s usually the retailers who move the boxes who have such a program, right?

As long as they avoid the pitfalls from the first time they did this; ie, Sculley’s “Test Drive a Mac” in 1984. You could test drive a Mac for 24 hours - 200,000 tried it - unfortunately many were returned.

I should note there are differences in this new promo. You buy it first (borrowed the last time), you get 30 days (versus 24 hours) and it’s only on the lower-priced machine, which means it may not be a budget-breaker for many who try the program (Apple machines in ‘84 were plenty pricey).
Here’s to chutzpah…

Jebedee - 30 August 2005 07:33 PM

I can’t get the top-shelf 17” PowerBook with MS Office and a 3-year warranty for $3,000.  You can.

So can you. Although there are no previous generation close-out models like your Dell example on Apple’s Online store at the moment, there are refurbished items. These are generally the same price range as close out items. The refurbs also offer all the same warranties as brand new items.

So, How about:

PowerBook 17-inch 1.67GHz SuperDrive - Apple Certified Refurbished
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
100GB Hard Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (128 MB DDR)
AirPort Extreme
Bluetooth 2.0 + Enhanced Data Rates
Backlit keyboard
Dual link DVI

Original price: $2,699.00
Your price: $2,299.00

Estimated Ship:
Within 24 hours
Free Shipping

Add Applecare (3 year warranty) - $349
and MS Office - $399

You end up less than $50 from your $3000 mark - $3047

If you teach or have a student in school or if you attend or teach at a University or Community College, you can take the Student discounts. Although there’s no discount on refurbs, it’s still $10 off of Applecare and $250 off of MS Office Student & Teacher Edition (currently there’s also a $50 rebate on Office S&T Edition making it $99). That brings the price down to $2687 ($2637 with rebate).

If you’d rather have a brand new machine instead of a refurb or previous generation (which this Dell at Costco is), it brings the price up to $3447. But with Student Discount, it only brings the whole package to $2787 before rebate.

Maybe it’s time you took a couple of credits at the local CC?

mcdermd - 31 August 2005 12:42 PM

Maybe it’s time you took a couple of credits at the local CC?

Attaboy, ‘mcdermd!’ Another one bites the dust!!

Speaking of E-V-I-L, I read today where Microsoft has re-structured itself. New Presidents, new responsibilities for one of three Chief Technical Officers. Whew! What a circus.

Any kind of restructuring at that level will please analysts. MSFT hasn’t gained much more than a nickel for years. Hmmm. That’s since Ballmer became CEO and Gates became Chief Software Architect.

The next year will be very telling and crucial for MSFT. If they get Vista out the door on time and it shines, we’re back to competition again. If not, and there’s continued management squabbles, deffections, and product delays, then Apple gets one more big chance to gobble up some market share.

We should see OS X Leopard in about 18 months; previews at WWDC next year?

When Apple releases Mac OS X for Intel next year, will it be Tiger or Leopard? I’d think it would be Tiger because even developers haven’t seen much of Leopard (if anything).

jonny_m - 21 September 2005 01:37 AM

When Apple releases Mac OS X for Intel next year, will it be Tiger or Leopard?

Yes.

Really? And we’ll have Tiger and Leopard for PowerPC Macs?

I’m assuming you mean there’ll be pieces of Leopard in the version of Tiger that’s released for Intel-based machines, since Leopard remains something of an unknown entity.

From what I’m reading, it looks like some kind of Windows upgrade will be released sometime next year, probably sooner than Leopard.

Windows Vista will get some noise, probably be more secure than XP, and have plenty more eye candy.

A good question then, is what’ll Leopard bring to the party that spills punch all over Vista?

More likely, he meant we dunno which one. 

My best guess is Tiger - if it has to be out by July (says Steve), and Leopard won’t be out then (there aren’t even any builds for it for most developers), then sending Intel kits with Tiger to make stuff work and putting out Intels with Leopard just makes no sense.

What I meant of course is intel Macs are due out a full 6 months before Leopard, so there will be an intel version of Tiger, and an intel version of Leopard. QED.

LonePalm - 22 August 2005 05:19 PM

Agreed, jonny m. Your conjecture is based on real-world actions, and the sad fact is it appears Microsoft is psychopathic in this regard. They actually do not understand that operating in this fashion is wrong..

Wrong? M$ makes decisions based on money, not morality. They view themselves (correctly) as a monopoly, so they divert programmers who should be improving Windows to other projects, like copying iTunes. As a result, their “Incredible” Longhorn becomes a marginally-credible Vista. The promised features are dropped one by one, the release date set back, and the vast product touted early on becomes half-vast. But it’s all to the good from M$’s view, because by diverting talent from the OS, they enter other markets and bring in the bucks from new sources. And the OS? No problem! M$ believes people will buy it because they are captive. The reason Windows lacks polish and usability is because it costs a lot to have programmers do their jobs superbly. People with vision would do that; there will be no vision in Vista.

IMHO, Criminal = Microsoft = Psychopath